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Carl Zeiss Jena Aseros 4 – 20x / 12,5 – 4,5 (other images)

Started by Rodolfo Peirano, November 30, 2017, 11:23:16 pm

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Rodolfo Peirano

everyone can learn from everyone - Rodolfo

Zbig Fiema

Thank you for sharing, Rodolfo. Do you know in cockpit of which plane it was installed? Regards, Zbig

Rodolfo Peirano

Hi,

From the shape of the cockpit I am almost certain that this is the Messerschmitt Bf 109 , but I do not exclude that was used of other fighter aircraft:

below a small scheme Me 109 with my Aseros:

everyone can learn from everyone - Rodolfo

Niall McLaren

December 01, 2017, 04:02:48 pm #3 Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:17:02 pm by Niall McLaren
I'm not sure if it's an Me109 - the fairing above the Aseros in the picture has an apex like a triangle but the 109's cockpit gives far better visibility. Might it not be the rear part of a two seater? It would seem more reasonable for an observer to use one than a pilot. ;)



"A little bit of something beats a whole lot of nothing." - Little Richard

Rodolfo Peirano

QuoteI'm not sure if it's an Me109 - the fairing above the Aseros in the picture has an apex like a triangle but the 109's cockpit gives far better visibility. Might it not be the rear part of a two seater? It would seem more reasonable for an observer to use one than a pilot.


Hi Niall,
it seems to me that the apex is the same, however, you're right.

Indeed there is more sense the presence of scope on an observation aircraft.

More: looking closely at the lower part of the two cokpits the first one has two glasses is the second only one.

My knowledge of military aircraft is very poor . . . :'( :'( :'(
everyone can learn from everyone - Rodolfo

Niall McLaren

I've been looking at various Luftwaffe cockpit fairings but haven't found anything resembling your picture but, if I find anything, I'll be sure to let you know. This mystery has gotten under my skin.... ???
"A little bit of something beats a whole lot of nothing." - Little Richard

Rodolfo Peirano

As I always say: As long as you live, there is always to be learned.

Keep me up to date.
Thanks so much
everyone can learn from everyone - Rodolfo

Zbig Fiema

I guess it couldn't be a recon version of Me110? Showing the rear end of the cockpit where MG was usually installed?

Niall McLaren

I wondered about the 110 too but the fairing doesn't come to a point Zbig;
"A little bit of something beats a whole lot of nothing." - Little Richard

Greg Boreland

December 02, 2017, 04:02:11 am #9 Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 10:27:36 am by Greg Boreland
Hi Guys,
               Similar telescopic sights were fitted to Messerschmitts which were equiped with the larger 50mm BK5 cannon such as the twin engine Messerschmitt ME 410.
The BK5 cannon with 21 rounds turned the aircraft into a dedicated bomber destroyer.
The cannon was derived from an anti-tank weapon and allowed the ME 410 to shoot at their targets from over 1,000 yards, a distance at which the bombers' guns were useless for defense.
The greater range of the cannon on these variants required telescopic sighting also with the slower rate of fire (45 Rounds per minute) they needed a much higher level of accuracy.
Unfortunately the BK5 cannon was notoriously unreliable and prone to jamming.
Pictures shown of similar variants of these telescopic gunsights are of the ME 410 and another of Adolf Galland in a ME109 which I presume might be the model fitted with the larger gun pods which were bolted under the wings.
The last image of the cockpit view is of a dual purpose version which could be switched between the conventional gunsight to the telescopic.
The standard gunsight on this version probably served as a type of quick sight used to pre sight the target before switching to the telescopic one.
                                                                    I hope this helps Rodolfo, Cheers Greg.

Rodolfo Peirano

Hi Greg,
great photos,I think that the most similar to the one I posted, is the one where we can see Adolf Galland, (very similar cockpit) even if the viewfinder does not seem like an Aseros.
Thanks a lot for your post.
Rodolfo
everyone can learn from everyone - Rodolfo

Niall McLaren

Great stuff Greg! Here's an interesting site which shows a view of the last sight you posted;

http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/bordgerate/optisch.htm

FR 4 which was installed instead of the Revi C12 / D on the Me 410 B-2 / U4 and A-1 / U4


USAAF dive bombers (and gunners) used straight through sights of zero magnification - the last thing you want in an aircraft is to realise the ground is much closer than you thought.

It doesn't lead us any nearer an understanding of a 4 - 20x sight on board an aircraft. In Dr Seeger's blue book of military optics (the soft cover) he shows a 4-20x sight - similar to an Aseros but with built in filters, used for training naval gunners. ;)

PS My Consolidated Catalina Gunsight By Wollensak with zero magnification;

http://binopedia.info/index.php?topic=210.msg751#msg751


a Japanese version;

https://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=1183






"A little bit of something beats a whole lot of nothing." - Little Richard

Rodolfo Peirano

Hi Niall,

QuoteUSAAF dive bombers (and gunners) used straight through sights of zero magnification - the last thing you want in an aircraft is to realise the ground is much closer than you thought.


very true, but in our case I think the pilot did not look at the ground below, but other targets.

QuoteIt doesn't lead us any nearer an understanding of a 4 - 20x sight on board an aircraft.


I do not remember where I found the picture we're talking about, but the view is certainly an Aseros. Below you can see the comparative view between the adjustment rings of my Aseros and the one mounted in the cokpit. The very large knurling, I think, had been made for use with leather gloves.

Quote
In Dr Seeger's blue book of military optics (the soft cover) he shows a 4-20x sight - similar to an Aseros but with built in filters, used for training naval gunners.


I think that the viewfinder that you see on Segeer's book "Pancktatiches Scharten-Zielfernrohr 15" 4 - 20 x is part of a whole series of marine optics that were connected to the naval cannons. Below an image take from http://www.monocular.info/index.html

However I can make mistakes. . . :) :) :)

everyone can learn from everyone - Rodolfo

Uli Zeun

Hello,
the second optical device that Rodolfo points to and is incorporated into the Cockpit (window) is a Reflexviesier.

For those who are interested in this special field of optical items you may have a look at:
http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/ or
http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/
or http://www.reflexvisier.com/optische-geraete

Erwin Wiedmer who is one of the website authors has a comprehensive knowledge about Military aircraft optics. I had the pleasure to meet him on my autumn tour through Switzerland.

The Aseros version used on airgrounds for airplane observation is the Carl Zeiss telescope F.101a. They were marked with an FL number 52283 which was the ordering number for the "Luftwaffe" (Fl ==> Flug ...)
see: www.monocular.info/cz_f101.htm or www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/fl-52283-fernrohr-f-101a
The telescopes were not made in Jena, but in Works #1221037 , as far as I can remember, a facility in Czechoslovakia.

The telescope comes with a cross-hairs reticle with a circle in the centre. My best guess how it functions is that you ahd to zoom in or out the wing span of the aircraft within the borders of the circle. By knowing the real wing span of the viewed aircraft you can read the distance in height (Höhenmeter - hm).

The F101a built into the aircraf Cockpit probably was only an experimental Trial to use the scope as a targeting sight for the pilot. Maybe then, it was not equipped with a zoom mechanism.
* Mr. Monocular *

Greg Boreland

Nice work Uli,
                     I kind of thought it would be a bit strange to have a scope facing forward in an aircraft for reconnaissance unless you were looking for ducks